<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #1565</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	12/23/99 2:12:57 PM Pacific Standard Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
Sender:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Reply-to:	traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
To:	traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
Traveller-digest    Thursday, December 23 1999    Volume 1999 : Number 1565<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Gone for the holidays, and 1yr anniversary<BR>
Re: Gone for the holidays, and 1yr anniversary<BR>
Latest Log Posted - TNEC<BR>
Re: Geographical idiocy (<BR>
Re: Geographical idiocy (was re: perception of distance)<BR>
Re: Drawing Program<BR>
Re: New TML score keeping device<BR>
Re: New TML score keeping device<BR>
Re: Geographical idiocy (<BR>
Re: New TML score keeping device<BR>
Re: England<BR>
Re: Macs and Hivers<BR>
Re: Sac'to? (Was Re: SF Trav game)<BR>
Re: Geographical idiocy (<BR>
Re: New TML score keeping device<BR>
Re: Terran polities<BR>
RE: Traveller Roadshows<BR>
Re: Drawing Program<BR>
Re: United States<BR>
Re: Macs and Hivers<BR>
Re: Gone for the holidays, and 1yr anniversary<BR>
Re: Terran polities<BR>
Re: Drawing Program<BR>
Re: Drawing Program<BR>
Re: Tramp Freighters<BR>
Re: Terran polities<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 14:23:25 -0500<BR>
From: "Swordy \(Colin Michael\)" <swordworlder@clinic.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Gone for the holidays, and 1yr anniversary<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message ----- <BR>
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <jdegraff@pacbell.net><BR>
> p.s.  Meant to have a TML Happy Holiday picture for everyone, but alas, I<BR>
> didn't have the time.  Think of Ditzie roasting chestnuts on an open fire<BR>
> >;D<BR>
<BR>
Accent on "Open Fire", no doubt...<BR>
<BR>
Run Awaaaaaay!!!<BR>
<BR>
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^<BR>
Colin Michael, WebDev<BR>
www.downport.com<BR>
The Traveller Domain<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 15:28:01 -0400<BR>
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: Gone for the holidays, and 1yr anniversary<BR>
<BR>
At 10:45 AM 12/23/99 -0800, you wrote:<BR>
>p.s.  Meant to have a TML Happy Holiday picture for everyone, but alas, I<BR>
>didn't have the time.  Think of Ditzie roasting chestnuts on an open fire<BR>
>>;D<BR>
        <BR>
        An open-topped fusion reactor is more likely....<BR>
<BR>
        --Michel<BR>
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-<BR>
	Michel R. Vaillancourt	misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca<BR>
				ICQ # 31172292<BR>
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-<BR>
	    NET-City Communications....<BR>
	         Providing "Solutions for the Common Company"<BR>
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-<BR>
	***REMEMBER - Always virus-check your emails ***<BR>
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 15:34:35 -0400<BR>
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca><BR>
Subject: Latest Log Posted - TNEC<BR>
<BR>
        Act 1, Scene 8 is now posted on my Classic Traveller - TNEC website.<BR>
Hit this URL:  "http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller/index.html"...<BR>
Follow the "TNEC Info" button, game is "Saviour's Race".<BR>
<BR>
        As always, comments, critiques and criticisms are welcome....<BR>
<BR>
        --Michel<BR>
<BR>
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-<BR>
	Michel R. Vaillancourt	misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca<BR>
				ICQ # 31172292<BR>
	"Reality Error in Progress....<BR>
			       ....Do Not Adjust Your Penguin"	<BR>
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-<BR>
	Cyberpunk:  	"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"<BR>
	Traveller:		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"<BR>
	AD&D:		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/adnd_eurania"<BR>
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-<BR>
	    ***REMEMBER - Always virus-check your emails ***<BR>
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 13:38:53 -0600<BR>
From: "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@flex.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Geographical idiocy (<BR>
<BR>
Its tough to teach kids geography, they hate it. I only have to teach Texas<BR>
geography in my job, but it still takes for too long for them to get it.<BR>
After nine months of Texas history, most of them can't figure out where<BR>
Houston is and we only live about 30 miles away.<BR>
<BR>
Plus, if California is anything like Texas, geography in the sense of what<BR>
is where is not stressed. We have the nice pretty 5 themes of geography to<BR>
teach.  Place, location, Movement, Human Environment Interaction, and one<BR>
other that my soft brain can't remember.<BR>
The idea is to stress how people affect the environment and how the<BR>
environment in turn affects people and culture.<BR>
Its  History Concepts versus hard facts these days or so everyone claims.<BR>
Fact is, if you don't like  it, go beat your school board with axe handles<BR>
till they change it and if that doesn't work, get ahold of your state board<BR>
of education. They respond much better to a good beating :)<BR>
<BR>
TV<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 13:45:10 -0600<BR>
From: "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@flex.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Geographical idiocy (was re: perception of distance)<BR>
<BR>
Just an added note.<BR>
I am a teacher, but the only reason I know any geography is due to a college<BR>
proffessor of mine.<BR>
She taught all the Latin American History courses I attended and the first<BR>
test in her "Intro to Latin America" was nothing but maps. Page after page<BR>
of blank maps of North, South America, Europe, etc...<BR>
You had to learn rivers, cities, mountain ranges and she was deadly serious.<BR>
I saw many 3rd and 4th year students who were trying to slide through a<BR>
first year history course freak when they saw the test. She warned them, but<BR>
no one really listened.  Needless to say, WE ALL LEARNED IT.  You had to in<BR>
order to keep up with her.<BR>
<BR>
There was nothing like trying to BS your way through an essay question on<BR>
the Chaco Region and the wars it caused when you had no clue exactly where<BR>
it was.  My one sentence answer  "The Chaco war was over oil" sure didn't<BR>
make her happy.<BR>
<BR>
TV<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 14:51:13 -0500<BR>
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Drawing Program<BR>
<BR>
AAAHHHH! It's time for yet another Topic That Shall Not Die ...<BR>
"exchangeable" graphics formats!<BR>
<BR>
Nevertheless, I'll throw my two cents in (actually, three or more):<BR>
<BR>
- - JPG is the worst possible format for anything but full-range<BR>
photographs. Line drawings, especially, need to be saved in a<BR>
non-lossy format. (Technical details: JPG converts blocks of pixels<BR>
from the spatial (x,y, RGB) domain into the frequency domain (i.e. a<BR>
series of cosine functions that approximate the RGB value at each<BR>
original x,y), and then throws away higher frequency values. Hence,<BR>
fine details get lost or blurred across multiple pixels).<BR>
<BR>
- - There *is* no standard vector format. Most modern programs can read<BR>
DXF, CGM, WMF and PS with varying levels of fidelity, depending on<BR>
platform.<BR>
<BR>
- - My choice: I want three copies of *everything*: the artist's<BR>
original format whatever it is (preserve maximum fidelity, and hope I<BR>
can read it), WMF or DXF (for a close vector approximation that<BR>
allows me to effectively scale and edit it), and .PNG or .GIF as the<BR>
"most portable least editable."<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
At 08:59 am 12/23/99 PST, you wrote:<BR>
>In mail you write:<BR>
><BR>
>> On 12/23/99 at 05:38 PM,  "Jim & Peta Lawrie"<BR>
<jimpeta@primus.com.au><BR>
>> said:<BR>
>><BR>
>>>    I actually use AutoCAD 2000 but the the files produced are<BR>
.dwg<BR>
>>>files. If I copy them into Paint I can get .jpg files but they<BR>
look<BR>
>>>really crummy. It's a crying shame when a simple door has ten<BR>
different<BR>
>>>lines in it and uses three operations but when you look at it in<BR>
the .jpg<BR>
>>>it's just a smudge.<BR>
><BR>
>JPG is the *worst* possible format for *drawings*. It's designed to<BR>
>*throw away* fine details. <BR>
><BR>
>If the color set is small use GIF files. If it's more than 256, use<BR>
PNG<BR>
>files. <BR>
><BR>
>And for vector files, CGM files are probably the most portable. I<BR>
know<BR>
>Corel can handle them.<BR>
><BR>
>-- <BR>
>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
> shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
<BR>
- -- As Dick Cavett put it so eloquently many years ago, "If violence<BR>
in TV and movies causes violence in the world, how come we don't see<BR>
random acts of situation comedy breaking out on the streets?"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 14:54:34 -0500<BR>
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net><BR>
Subject: Re: New TML score keeping device<BR>
<BR>
At 11:30 am 12/23/99 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
>Being slightly bored and with time on my hands, I drew up a simple<BR>
sign<BR>
>for your tml pleasure.<BR>
><BR>
>You get one of these for each post in which at least one keyboard is<BR>
>drenched.<BR>
><BR>
>http://www.u.arizona.edu/~bjohnson/travart.html<BR>
<BR>
	*sigh* OK, you can award yourself another ...<BR>
<BR>
	Maybe you could also keep a running tally by name on this page.<BR>
<BR>
- -- As Dick Cavett put it so eloquently many years ago, "If violence<BR>
in TV and movies causes violence in the world, how come we don't see<BR>
random acts of situation comedy breaking out on the streets?"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 14:07:13 -0600<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: New TML score keeping device<BR>
<BR>
"David J. Golden" wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> At 11:30 am 12/23/99 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
> >Being slightly bored and with time on my hands, I drew up a simple<BR>
> sign<BR>
> >for your tml pleasure.<BR>
> ><BR>
> >You get one of these for each post in which at least one keyboard is<BR>
> >drenched.<BR>
> ><BR>
> >http://www.u.arizona.edu/~bjohnson/travart.html<BR>
> <BR>
>         *sigh* OK, you can award yourself another ...<BR>
> <BR>
>         Maybe you could also keep a running tally by name on this page.<BR>
<BR>
I plan to go through _all_ TML posts since late October 1999, and tally<BR>
up the keyboard kills, with both victims and credits.<BR>
<BR>
(Yes, I'm on semester break right now...why do you ask?)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 13:04:15 -0700<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Geographical idiocy (<BR>
<BR>
Thomas Vickers wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> Its tough to teach kids geography, they hate it. I only have to teach Texas<BR>
> geography in my job, but it still takes for too long for them to get it.<BR>
> After nine months of Texas history, most of them can't figure out where<BR>
> Houston is and we only live about 30 miles away.<BR>
<BR>
Yeah, but Texas has 3,234 little counties all over the place (anyone<BR>
ever _seen_ a county map of Texas? ;-) Jeez, the county sherf probably<BR>
leaves his jurisdiction backing out of his driveway! <BR>
<BR>
guess I was a nerd even in grade school (well, duh!) I liked geography:<BR>
we always got neat little blank maps to draw on, which started a long,<BR>
and ongoing fascination with things cartographic...<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 13:56:01 -0600<BR>
From: "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@flex.net><BR>
Subject: Re: New TML score keeping device<BR>
<BR>
>><BR>
>>You get one of these for each post in which at least one keyboard is<BR>
>>drenched.<BR>
>><BR>
>>http://www.u.arizona.edu/~bjohnson/travart.html<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
We need them printed on little stickers. Cant you get paper/stickers for<BR>
inkjet printers?<BR>
This might be fun<BR>
<BR>
TV<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 09:20:36 +1300<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: England<BR>
<BR>
On 23 Dec 99, at 9:54, Steven Hudson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> >From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
> >Subject: Re: England<BR>
> ...<BR>
> >Not many. OTOH how many wars have the Germans killed sh*tloads more Brits<BR>
> >than the Brits killed Germans? Two this century, for starters.<BR>
> <BR>
>   At a wild guess, Bomber Command alone may have killed more in WW2<BR>
> than the UK itself lost; the numbers for WW1 won't be so cut & dried, but<BR>
> the same result should occur, even without blockade effects.<BR>
<BR>
I'm not quite sure how you'd get the same result in WWI, after all it <BR>
ths the Germans who went in for city bombing in that war.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Rupert Boleyn <paradise.net.nz><BR>
Wellington, New Zealand<BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 12:39:55 -0800<BR>
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@worldnet.att.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Macs and Hivers<BR>
<BR>
Charles Collin wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> What does this have to do with Hivers?  Well, in our last trav game a<BR>
> couple of weeks ago he played a Hiver and used the Speak feature as his<BR>
> "voder".  He would type his responses to questions (he's a fairly fast<BR>
> typist, but still had to switch to his own voice for sustained<BR>
> conversation) and they would come out of the Ibook in this "synthesized"<BR>
> voice.  Hilarious!  He kept a few stock answers in the "command history",<BR>
> such as "Yes", "No", and "Imbibing of blue liquids will lead inevitably to<BR>
> the estalishment of an oligarchy."<BR>
<BR>
Now that I will have remeber.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
The theme of the whole thing is clear. We have to be careful with wisdom. We<BR>
have to make certain we're ready for it when it comes knocking on our door.<BR>
Knowledge isn't always a blessing;<BR>
    sometimes, it's damnation.<BR>
Play Dirty: Let's All Go to the Movies!, by John Wick<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 12:44:44 -0800<BR>
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@worldnet.att.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Sac'to? (Was Re: SF Trav game)<BR>
<BR>
Jesse DeGraff wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Hell, I'm in Milpitas (close enough for a road trip), and Todd's in<BR>
> Stockton.  Ya' never know!  You should come out to BayCon next Memorial Day<BR>
> weekend.  Seems to be shaping up as a major West Coast TML get together.<BR>
<BR>
 Jesse you In?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Evyn,<BR>
The theme of the whole thing is clear. We have to be careful with wisdom. We<BR>
have to make certain we're ready for it when it comes knocking on our door.<BR>
Knowledge isn't always a blessing;<BR>
    sometimes, it's damnation.<BR>
Play Dirty: Let's All Go to the Movies!, by John Wick<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 14:40:55 -0600<BR>
From: "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@flex.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Geographical idiocy (<BR>
<BR>
Hey, hey, hey !!!!<BR>
Only 254 counties I think.<BR>
Some are pretty darn huge  :)<BR>
<BR>
Just a note. Cattle ranches here in Texas used to measured in RI's.<BR>
That is how many Rhode Islands would fit within the boundaries of your<BR>
ranch.<BR>
Talk about a strange sickness that must have been, Owning more land that<BR>
some states.<BR>
<BR>
TV<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 13:56:00 -0700<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: New TML score keeping device<BR>
<BR>
Thomas Vickers wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> >><BR>
> >>You get one of these for each post in which at least one keyboard is<BR>
> >>drenched.<BR>
> >><BR>
> >>http://www.u.arizona.edu/~bjohnson/travart.html<BR>
> ><BR>
> <BR>
> We need them printed on little stickers. Cant you get paper/stickers for<BR>
> inkjet printers?<BR>
> This might be fun<BR>
<BR>
Oooh stickers...I'll have to see.<BR>
<BR>
If any one really wants it for stickers or something, I have the<BR>
original vector artwork; I can mail it in just about any format your<BR>
little hearts desire, be a lot sharper than using the gif from my web<BR>
site.<BR>
<BR>
Oh, and this was done with the drawing program I mentioned earlier,<BR>
Mayura Draw. I looked at it on my PC when I got to work...the shareware<BR>
fee is $25.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 21:58:42 +0100<BR>
From: Florian Merx <flow523@gmx.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Terran polities<BR>
<BR>
> William F. Hostman writes:<BR>
> >I doubt there is a continuity there. For example, Egypt, which was nation<BR>
> >3-5000 years ago, is a nation now; for well over 100 years it was NOT a<BR>
> >nation. Only China has survived 5000 years with a clear national identity.<BR>
<BR>
Wait a second there. The idea of a nation only came up in the 17th/18th<BR>
in *western* Europe. Absolutism and all that. Until then the general<BR>
populace (mostly illiterate farmers) didn't care if their (land)lords<BR>
were French, German or Swedish. Indeed, in Germany, a country that was<BR>
one of the latter ones to achieve the status nation, it wasn't until the<BR>
protests of 1832 (Hambacher Schlo, nudge nudge) that the cry for a<BR>
unified nation was heard. The nobility until then derived their claims<BR>
from god - and possibly Napoleon, depending on where you were at the<BR>
time. ;)<BR>
<BR>
Flow<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Madness takes its toll. Please have exact change.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 20:45:04 -0000<BR>
From: "CHARLES WALKER" <cnw@globalnet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: RE: Traveller Roadshows<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 10:00:13 +0000<BR>
<BR>
>At 08:49 AM 23/12/1999 GMT, you wrote:<BR>
>><BR>
>>>Too right it does, count me in as well. Though being a non-driver, I >may<BR>
>>>need a lift...<BR>
>><BR>
>>Me too....<BR>
>I do drive. Do we have a date for this event? (I'm away over Christmas and<BR>
>the New Year)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Well if we have a few weeks notice, Jae Campbell can have the use of his<BR>
community Centre for free,  3 big halls and other smaller rooms, computers,<BR>
photocopiers etc..<BR>
<BR>
we could even make it a weekend event say 15-16 Jan.....<BR>
<BR>
If you want me to run something it will be Mega trav, or Gurps,<BR>
            I also drive,  so how many of you would be free for a weekend/<BR>
day of say 15-16   Jan,   Or if you have any other days in mind let me know<BR>
<BR>
If you could send to me off the list I will talk to Jae and let you all know<BR>
what is going down.!<BR>
<BR>
Nick.<BR>
Behold,  his feet leave tracks in the sands of time,<BR>
and Death walks at his left hand...<BR>
UTUP.<BR>
0609-A666A667-5-5-2<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 12:33:25 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Drawing Program<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> If you have a cable modem I'll unload my copy of Viso on you.  I NEVER used<BR>
> it and now no longer even bother installing it.  Not because its bad, but<BR>
> because I'm into too many other things and don't have the time for it.  I<BR>
> have Viso 3.0 business and Viso 3.0 Scientific.<BR>
<BR>
I don't have a cable modem, but the system my shell account is on has a<BR>
T-1 line. I can grab it from you easily, and then take my time getting<BR>
it from the shell account. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 12:36:29 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: United States<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> In a message dated 12/23/99 12:15:55 PM Eastern Standard Time, <BR>
> shadow@krypton.rain.com writes:<BR>
><BR>
>> Maps of the *whole* world would be rather nice. Besides the Americas<BR>
>>  there are things like the ruins on Ponape(?) in the South Pacific,<BR>
>>  where even if we don't know much about the culture, it'd be nice to<BR>
>>  know that *someone* was messing about with megalthic construction there<BR>
>>  during whatever period it was built in. <BR>
><BR>
> Things like that might be a bit below the level of detail they can provide in<BR>
> this format.  Even if one of the atlases covers the South Pacific -- I don't<BR>
> know if they've published one for that area yet.<BR>
<BR>
The ruins aren't exactly small. This was a *major* population center or<BR>
ceremonial center. It covers a *lot* of ground. It'd be more noticable<BR>
if the mangrove(?) swamps hadn't grown up around it.<BR>
<BR>
> Granted, the first couple of atlases in the series are pretty old,<BR>
> and may date back to the time when respectable academics could think<BR>
> that history was something that only happened in Europe.  Still,<BR>
> Penguin has steadily been releasing new volumes in the series to<BR>
> cover other parts of the world.  I saw an atlas of North American<BR>
> history a few months ago.  It appeared to cover the movements of the<BR>
> Native American peoples all the way back to the cross-Bering<BR>
> migrations -- at least in as much detail as the archeological record<BR>
> will support.<BR>
<BR>
Ah! That sounds nice.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 13:01:30 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Macs and Hivers<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> The thread about Macs got me thinking about a friend of mine who recently<BR>
> bought a Tangerine Ibook.  He loves it despite being a long-time WinPC<BR>
> person, but the first thing he did with it was install a PC emulator. I'll<BR>
> never forget the first time he showed me this funky contoured<BR>
> orange-and-white computer with a blank black screen, a C:> prompt in the<BR>
> corner, and a list of register values printed out in ASCII.  I yelled in<BR>
> slo-mo:  "Nooooooo....!!!!" :-) <BR>
<BR>
Gee, I bet you'd *love* the program I've got to get around to<BR>
installing one of these days. It's a TRS-80 emulator for Windows...<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 12:42:37 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Gone for the holidays, and 1yr anniversary<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> p.s.  Meant to have a TML Happy Holiday picture for everyone, but alas, I<BR>
> didn't have the time.  Think of Ditzie roasting chestnuts on an open fire<BR>
>>;D<BR>
<BR>
Knowing Ditzie, the "open fire" was made by lighting a few bags of<BR>
gunpowder or the like that were past usage date (they really do<BR>
dispose of old powder by burning it). <BR>
<BR>
Picture her tossing on a new bag/box every so often, as well as "scrap"<BR>
explosives (ie trimmings of TNT, C4, etc). And maybe the occasional<BR>
magnesium or titanium scrap (pieces from designs that didn't work out).<BR>
<BR>
Of course, this fire will have flames shooting up a few hundred<BR>
feet.... you roast things by extending them past the blast shield a<BR>
could of hundred meters from the *edge* of the<BR>
inferno^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hfire. Said fire being "only" 50 or so meters<BR>
across. <BR>
<BR>
I base this vision of hell on the results of having the "Senior Patrol"<BR>
in one Scout troop I was in being delegated to "watch the camp" during<BR>
a camporee (inter troop competition). <BR>
<BR>
They decided to build a bigger fire. When we got back for lunch, they<BR>
had dragged half a dozen downed *trees* together into a rough "teepee"<BR>
shape and ignited them. One scout cooked a TV dinner one the ground 10<BR>
feet from the fire!<BR>
<BR>
So I just asked myself what those guys would have done given the<BR>
resources available to Ditzie. :-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 13:16:08 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Terran polities<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> There is some continuity at least. The government of 1109 is bound to some<BR>
> extent by a legal decision made by the "World Court" a few years after<BR>
> -2030. It appears that the 3 millenia between -2000 and 1100 are a little<BR>
> different from the 3 millenia between -1000 BC and 2000 AD. Perhaps analogies<BR>
> drawn between the two periods are not altogether sound.<BR>
<BR>
And current law is traceable to Roman law, maybe even to Hammurabi. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 12:30:49 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Drawing Program<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> I also have TheDraw sitting around somewhere too.  :)<BR>
<BR>
Unlike you, I know *exactly* where it is<BR>
(\\td-3\main\freq\dos\graphics\editors). If you are in Fidonet, you<BR>
can FREQ TDRAW*.* from me.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 08:36:10 +1100<BR>
From: "Jim & Peta Lawrie" <jimpeta@primus.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Drawing Program<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com><BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Date: Friday, 24 December 1999 12:50<BR>
Subject: Re: Drawing Program<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>If you have a cable modem I'll unload my copy of Viso on you.  I NEVER used<BR>
>it and now no longer even bother installing it.  Not because its bad, but<BR>
>because I'm into too many other things and don't have the time for it.  I<BR>
>have Viso 3.0 business and Viso 3.0 Scientific.<BR>
> J-Man<BR>
<BR>
    Not only do I not have a cable (wistful sigh) but I have the dubious<BR>
honour of running through the slowest telephone exchange in Tasmania. I<BR>
think I'll work up the plans on AutoCad 2000 and clean it up in Photoshop,<BR>
when I can get it to run the images. Strangely enough, I can copy into Paint<BR>
but not Photoshop and when I convert the image into .jpg in Paint, Photoshop<BR>
won't read it.<BR>
    Thanks anyway.<BR>
    Jim.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 11:35:45 -0500<BR>
From: "Daniel Phelps" <phelpsd@gate.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Tramp Freighters<BR>
<BR>
Was written:<BR>
<BR>
><snip description of tramp freighters carrying 'used' cars, etc><BR>
><BR>
>Somehow, I doubt those vehicles are worth 20-30 million dollars each.<BR>
><BR>
>There's also a reasonable 'tramp' trade in trucking; a lot of truckers own<BR>
their own rigs.  That's probably the closest modern equivalent to a<BR>
Traveller free trader, though again, a semi-truck is a whole lot less<BR>
expensive than a traveller starship (its still a pretty major investment,<BR>
however).<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
I picture star ships in the trade I describe as being at the bottom of the<BR>
barrel.  They are old clapped out low tech vessels held together with spit,<BR>
chewing gum and bailing wire.   They survive on used parts and make do.<BR>
"Vargr rigged" or "woofer engineered" might be a particularly un politically<BR>
correct way of describing them.   They come and go with very little<BR>
attention being paid to them.  They have very little impact on developed<BR>
worlds but play a significant role in the economies of low tech ones.<BR>
They are "the dustman/rag pickers of the spaceways".   They occasionally<BR>
engage in the marginally criminal traditional activities of smuggling of low<BR>
risk illegal merchandise in small packages and the transport of "warm"<BR>
merchandise for plausible which deniability can be claimed.<BR>
<BR>
"Stolen sir?  No sir I don't have no actual bill of sale for those widgets.<BR>
Please to understand,  I got um in a swap for six blivits and a slightly<BR>
used gravbelt.   See I shows them on the manifest right here.  Yes sir it is<BR>
indeed a bit illegible, we had a fresher back up this run in and there was<BR>
some water damage.  Yes sir that is indeed why they smell a little off.  No<BR>
sir it isn't on the computer, we have a memory problem we does.  We keep<BR>
hard copy records so as to leave space for nav plots.  A byte here a byte<BR>
there it all adds up and manifesting programs takes bunches and bunches of<BR>
memory they do.   Sir, if you look here on the cargo trim program you will<BR>
find it.   Wdgs, 1 std. CB sm, 1251.5 kg. "<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 13:30:09 -0800<BR>
From: "Kiri Aradia Morgan" <tiamat@tsoft.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Terran polities<BR>
<BR>
From: Florian Merx <flow523@gmx.de><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>> William F. Hostman writes:<BR>
>> I doubt there is a continuity there. For example, Egypt, which was nation<BR>
3-5000 years ago, is a nation now; for well over 100 years it was NOT a<BR>
nation. Only China has survived 5000 years with a clear national identity.<BR>
>><BR>
>Wait a second there. The idea of a nation only came up in the 17th/18th in<BR>
*western* Europe. Absolutism and all that. Until then the general populace<BR>
(mostly illiterate farmers) didn't care if their (land)lords were French,<BR>
German or Swedish. Indeed, in Germany, a country that was one of the latter<BR>
ones to achieve the status nation, it wasn't until the protests of 1832<BR>
(Hambacher Schlo, nudge nudge) that the cry for a unified nation was heard.<BR>
The nobility until then derived their claims from god - and possibly<BR>
Napoleon, depending on where you were at the time. ;)<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
This is a rather eurocentric view, don't you think?<BR>
<BR>
I am pretty sure that people in China have always had a very good sense that<BR>
they are Chinese and and that their rulers were Chinese (or invaders) and<BR>
that they are living in the Middle Kingdom.<BR>
<BR>
My Chinese ex can trace his family back to the Han (don't get him started on<BR>
the Manchu).  I don't know about the academic definition of nationalism and<BR>
all-- it's been years since I did academic history-- which hasn't always got<BR>
much relationship to actual history-- but there is a very definite sense of<BR>
what is and is not China and what is and is not Chinese that has been a<BR>
factor in Chinese thinking for a lot longer than 300 or 400 years.<BR>
<BR>
And I am pretty sure that the Tokugawa, to whom my Beloved One's family were<BR>
once retainers (don't get him started on the Meiji), had a pretty good sense<BR>
of Japan as a nation-- and what they did and did not want coming into and<BR>
out of that nation.<BR>
<BR>
Kiri  =)<BR>
<BR>
(so just what is it about Goth, LOL, that attracts beautiful Asian boys who<BR>
look back fondly on the glory days of their ancestors?)<BR>
<BR>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<BR>
Kiri Aradia Morgan      93!      Thou Art God...<BR>
tiamat@tsoft.com<BR>
<BR>
"That wickedness weltering around inside of you, inside of everyone, is<BR>
sacred somewhere.  There's<BR>
a deity out here who digs it.  You can respect and love your darkest side,<BR>
disposing of only what is obsolete or impractical.  It's all about giving<BR>
yourself permission."<BR>
                               -- Jack Darkhand<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1565<BR>
***********************************<BR>
<BR>
To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR>
<BR>
unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR>
<BR>
in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.imagiconline.com".<BR>
If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>
coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>
address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>
"local-traveller":<BR>
<BR>
subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR>
<BR>
A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>
in the commands above with "traveller".<BR>
<BR>
Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR>
</XMP></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#0f0f0f" BACK="#fffffe" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
<BR>
----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>
Return-Path: <owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Received: from  rly-yd05.mx.aol.com (rly-yd05.mail.aol.com [172.18.150.5]) by air-yd01.mail.aol.com (v67.7) with ESMTP; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 17:12:57 -0500<BR>
Received: from  lists.imagiconline.com (lists.imagiconline.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-yd05.mx.aol.com (v67.7) with ESMTP; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 17:12:36 -0500<BR>
Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id RAA52264;<BR>
	Thu, 23 Dec 1999 17:02:48 -0500 (EST)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Received: by lists.imagiconline.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Thu, 23 Dec 1999 16:45:58 -0500<BR>
Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id QAA51531<BR>
	for traveller-digest-outgoing; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 16:45:58 -0500 (EST)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 16:45:58 -0500 (EST)<BR>
Message-Id: <199912232145.QAA51531@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
To: traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #1565<BR>
Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
<BR>
</HTML>
